Talk:Modern Orthodox Judaism

Modern Orthodoxy under attack

In recent years Modern Orthodox Jews have seen a resurgence of attacks against the legitimacy of Modern Orthodoxy from Haredi rabbis. For decades many Haredi rabbis have derided Modern Orthodox Jews merely for the "sin" of receiving a secular education as well as a Jewish education. For instance, here is one of the older criticisms against all of Modern Orthodoxy as being inauthentic:

• Those who receive a secular education cannot express authentic Torah views, from p.25 of Cosmopolitans and Parochials", Samuel C. Heilman, Steven Martin Cohen

What is notable is that this trend to deligitimize Modern Orthodox has greatly accelerated in the last few decade, with literally worldwide consequences. In Israel Haredim have tried to deligitimize the conversions made by Modern Orthodox rabbis in the USA, thus deligitimizing the rabbis themselves! For instance:

• "The latest, most public, such salvo was issued by Rabbi Elya Svei, a prominent member of Agudat Israel's Mo'etzet Gedolei HaTorah. In a speech before several thousand listeners at Agudat Israel's annual convention, Rav Svei called {modern Orthodox} Rabbi Norman Lamm "an enemy of God." He later refused to retract his charge.

Modern Orthodoxy in America: Possibilities for a Movement under Siege, William B. Helmreich and Reuel Shinnar

'Modern Orthodoxy in America: Possibilities for a Movement under Siege'

It is not just this issue. The past decade has seen a growing number of attacks against any form of Orthodoxy that isn't seen as Haredi, and this needs to be more fully written about.

However, this is not to say that this is true of all of Haredi Orthodoxy. But it is true of a "big enough" segment. This subject needs to be more fully addressed in this article. Caution: Wikipedia editors to take careful note of editorial standards: We don't censor articles reporting on racism in America, for fear of being unpatriotic. Why not? (A) Wikipedia isn't a pro-American, anti-everyone-else publication. It is an NPOV encyclopedia. It is the job of encyclopedia editors to describe reality, not to hide it. (B) SImply because some percentage of Americans do bad things doesn't mean that all, or even most, are bad. The same is true for Jews in general, and Haredi Jews in specific. Just because our article describes the extent of the Haredi attacks on the legitimacy of Modern Orthodoxy, it doesn't mean that all or most Haredim attack all or most MO Jews.

I certainly say or believe no such thing, and I would take offense at anyone who does such a thing. Someone who tries to edit this article to make such a point that that is not only mean, but also they would be factually incorrect. I would, in fact, take both pride and pleasure in defending the legitimacy of Haredi Judaism as an authentic form of rabbinic Judaism, and would edit out comments which state that Haredi Jews should in general be suspected of being not-nice deligitimizers, or violent.

Sadly the problem we historically see in Wikipedia articles is that some editors take a "They are all bad stance", and try to make everyone in a given group (Haredim, Democrats, atheists, lawyers) look like bad people, or at least idiots. These editors are then rebutted by the "No, everyone in this group is great, and really their opponents are bad and idiots!" comments. Neither said turns out to be factually correct, and they resort to statements which violate our NPOV policy. Just as bad, edit wars erupt in which self-appointed "protectors" of the article censor the articles by editing out everything they disagree with. (Which is my Citizendium is so much better.) Thus, I want to remind editors of these problems so we can avoid the ahead of time. In fact, as a sign of good faith, I will resist the temptation to write anything at all about this topic, for the time being, and let other Wikipedians study these sources (and others they come across on their own) and write more in this article. RK (talk)

• Modern Orthodoxy Under Attack: Noah Feldman's intimate critique in the Times seen as raising the question of how to deal with Jews who marry out, Gary Rosenblatt, The Jewish Week, 7/27/97

• Orthodoxy is under attack by what the authors refer to as "Yeshiva Orthodoxy", p.259

Accounting for Fundamentalisms Martin E. Marty, R. Scott Appleby, American Academy of Arts and Sciences

• Haredi Jews in Israel have beaten up religious Jews merely because they didn't dress like Haredim.

'Haredi, religious residents clash in Beit Shemesh - Three religious teen girls beaten up by ultra-Orthodox mob while passing through haredi neighborhood. Religious residents report escalating violence on haredim's behalf, latter cite promiscuity as trigger for clashes..later in the article Haredi rabbis state that they approve of these attacks against non-Haredi Orthodox Jews:

...meanwhile the members of the Haredi Community stream in Beit Shemesh present a different version for the state of affairs in town. Moshe, a haredi resident, said that young religious boys and girls often pass through the haredi neighborhood together, and that on occasion yeshiva students have to "drive them away by force." "Boys and girls laughing together is forbidden. This shouldn't happen in a secular neighborhood, let alone an ultra-Orthodox one," Moshe stated...

Haredi, religious residents clash in Beit Shemesh, Kobi Nahshoni 12.21.08, YNet Jewish World,

Haredi, religious residents clash in Beit Shemesh

• Modern Orthodoxy decides to fight back, Rabbu Martin Lockshin, Canadian Jewish News, Thursday, 15 May 2008
• article Modern Orthodoxy decies to fight back

• Sliding to the Right: The Contest for the Future of American Jewish Orthodoxy, Samuel C. Heilman,

—Preceding unsigned comment added by RK (talk • contribs)

There is nothing new about the discussion about the legitimacy of Modern Orthodoxy. This has been going on for decades. Leaving aside the one incident where there seems to have been physical violence, there is no history of large-scale clashes between the two movements. Indeed, it is extremely common (especially in the USA) for parts of one family to belong to different camps. In the UK certainly there is no iron curtain between the Modern Orthodox and Haredi communities, although there is a degree of separation which is completely mutual and not instigated by the Haredim.

I think you overstate the depth of the rift. Haredi authorities do indeed have problems with some of the halachic leniences approved by MO rabbis. Again, this has been going on for a very long time and it would be somewhat nonsensical to say that MO is "under attack" any more than it has been in the past, and it is equally nonsensical to say that there is no opposition to Haredim by MO spokespeople. JFW | T@lk 21:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposed restructuring

Hi All. I propose combining "Right and left" with the introductory material from "Philosophy" - thereby creating a new first section which is more broad than the rest. This section would then lead in to the "Philosophy" and "Comparison with other movements" sections. Perhaps it could be titled, simply, "Modern Orthodoxy". Any comments? Thanks. Fintor (talk) 11:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

My proposal is as below: Fintor (talk) 08:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I take it that I may proceed ☺. Fintor (talk) 07:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Am proceeding. Thanks. Fintor (talk) 07:24, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Modern Orthodoxy

Modern Orthodoxy comprises a fairly broad spectrum of movements each drawing on several distinct, though related, philosophies, which in some combination provide the basis for all variations of the movement today; these are discussed below.

In general, Modern Orthodoxy holds that Jewish law is normative and binding, while simultaneously attaching a positive value to interaction with the modern world. In this view, Orthodox Judaism can “be enriched” by its intersection with modernity; further, “modern society creates opportunities to be productive citizens engaged in the Divine work of transforming the world to benefit humanity”. At the same time, in order to preserve the integrity of halakha, any area of “powerful inconsistency and conflict” between Torah and modern culture must be filtered out. .

Additional to this, Modern Orthodoxy assigns a central role to the "People of Israel" . Here two characteristics are manifest: in general, Modern Orthodoxy places a high national, as well as religious, significance on the State of Israel, and institutions and individuals are, typically, Zionist in orientation; relatedly, involvement with non-orthodox Jews will extend beyond "outreach" to include institutional relations and cooperation; see further under Torah Umadda.

The specific expression of Modern Orthodoxy, however, takes many forms, and in fact, particularly over the past 30 - 40 years, describes a political spectrum. Among the issues have been the extent to which Modern Orthodoxy should cooperate with the more liberal denominations, support secular academic pursuits combined with religious learning, and embrace efforts to give women a larger role in Jewish learning and worship ; the acceptability of modern textual criticism as a tool for Torah study is also debated. See also Diversity within Orthodox Judaism under Orthodox Judaism.

To the ideological right, the line between Haredi and Modern Orthodox has blurred in recent years (some have referred to this trend as "haredization" ). In addition to increasing stringency in adherence to Halakha, many Modern Orthodox Jews express a growing sense of alienation from the larger, secular culture . Here “the balance has tipped heavily in favor of Torah over madda (secular studies)… [and many] have redefined "madda" as support for making one's livelihood in the secular world, not culturally or intellectually engaging with it” . See Joseph B. Soloveitchik: Debate over world view; Torah im Derech Eretz: Interpretation.

Adherents on the ideological left have begun to develop new institutions that aim to be outward looking whilst maintaining a discourse between modernity and halakhah. The resultant Open Orthodoxy seeks to re-engage with secular studies, Jews of all denominations and global issues. Some within this movement have experimented with orthodox egalitarianism where gender equality solutions are found through halakhah. This has led to women taking on more leadership roles. Others in this movement are increasingly re-engaging with social justice issues from a halakhic point of view . See Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, Shalom Hartman Institute, Hebrew Institute of Riverdale, Partnership minyan, Shira Hadasha, MigdalOr.

It is also noted that, in fact, many Modern Orthodox are “behaviorally modern” as opposed to "ideologically modern", and, in truth, fall outside of "Modern" Orthodoxy, at least in the philosophical sense. The distinction is as follows: The ideologically modern are “meticulously observant of Halakha” , and their interaction with the secular comprises a tangible expression of their ideology, wherever it may lie on the spectrum described. The “behaviorally modern”, on the other hand, define themselves as "Modern Orthodox" only in the sense that they are neither Haredi ("Ultra-Orthodox") nor Conservative: these, in other words, are “not deeply concerned with philosophical ideas” , and, often, may not be as careful in their observance.

Given the above, it is clear that various, highly differing views (or non views) - ranging from traditionalist to revisionist -are offered under the banner of "Modern Orthodoxy". The boundaries here, with respect to Haredi and Conservative Judaism have therefore become increasingly indistinct. Some elements of Haredi Judaism appear to be more receptive to messages that have traditionally been part of the Modern-Orthodox agenda. Similarly, at Modern Orthodoxy’s left wing, many appear to align with more traditional elements of Conservative Judaism. In discussing "Modern Orthodoxy" it is thus also important to clarify its position with reference to other movements in Judaism: see Comparison with other movements below.

References

History section?

How is there not a history section in this article? john k (talk) 03:07, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Criticism section

The criticism section doesn't seem to be sourced very well and appears to be more original research. Any comments on improving the section? Disagreements with my worry that it is original research? _{too_much} curiosity (talk) 02:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

"The behaviorally modern" section makes no sense.

I don't know how I would improve it with edits because I honestly have no idea what it is trying to say. Seems like the thesis is that there are Modern Orthodox Jews who are not very devout? I think there is a better way to get that point across, if so. Haplodiploid75 (talk) 01:14, 9 December 2024 (UTC)