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Native American Ontologies

@Phlsph7 Hi there, I added the Native American Ontology section under history because I found that if sections like Greek or Hindu could be included under the page then it would also apply to Native Americans. The anthropology subpage was not correctly sourced and didn't properly represent Native American ontologies. Most of the scholars that I have sourced are not anthropologists, and source 115 comes from Glen Coulthard who is in fact a philosopher. Barkiechaser (talk) 22:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello! This is a very high-level article, and representation of topics should reflect their representation in the whole body of reliable sources. This does not rule out additional material relating to Native American ontologies, but one would have to demonstrate a change in proportionality. There is certainly room for improvement on the subpage like you describe, and it would be very much appreciate if the improvements could be made there. Remsense诉 00:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello Barkiechaser and thanks for the work you have put into writing these paragraphs. The problem is not that they lack sources but that the sources fail to establish the importance of this topic to the wide field of ontology in general. For example, I had a look at two overview sources of ontology (The entries "Ontology" in the MacMillan Encyclopedia of Philosophy and the Oxford Companion of Philosophy) and they don't even mention them while they include a detailed discussion of the ancient Greeks. This indicates that a detailed discussion of Native American ontologies does not fit into this article. I added a sentence to the subsection "Anthropology" to at least mention Native American ontologies and give the reader a high-level impression. You might consider adding more detailed information to articles more closely associated with this particular tradition, like Native American religions or Native American studies. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Good morning, thank you guys both for the quick and clear responses. I understand the issues with proportionality and the weight given to Native Americans under this section, especially since the other sections aren't given the same amount of detail on a page meant for a wider overview of ontology. I think it would be fair to still include Native American Ontologies within the history section, but limit the information included and summarize it better. With that being said, I don't think an encyclopedia from 60 years ago should indicate or be a justification for what should or should not be included within this page. I don't want to imply that the encyclopedia is invalid simply because it's slightly dated, also considering that the Oxford Encyclopedia is from the 90s. But by the same logic, Hindu ontologies should also be removed from the page as neither Encyclopedia mentions them in any detail.

It is not surprising to me that both Encyclopedias go into extensive detail about Greek philosophies, seeing as they have been very influential to European/Western ideas of thinking. My biggest motivation to create this section is to express that ontology should not be limited to Western thought and represent Native American thought, which has been historically silenced and not properly represented anywhere else on Wikipedia. I think removing all information on Native American ontologies, and placing them under pages which are centered around Native Americans, would exacerbate these silences.

Furthermore, I don't think the anthropology subsection does an adequate job of representing Native American thought. Even with the addition you made, reducing Native American thought to simply "animism" paints a skewed picture of complex and long-existing ontologies. Including Native American thought under anthropology feels demeaning especially considering its location within the page. Source [199] only mentions the word “indigenous” 4 times, all of them have specifically to do with animism and the way it relates to cartesian dualism. “Native” or “Native American” isn’t mentioned, and all references to “Indigenous” aren’t specific to one specific indigenous community. Source [200] doesn’t mention the term “indigenous” or “native” once. It only serves as a reference to the ontological turn, which is mentioned but doesn’t go any further into indigenous or Native American perspectives on ontology.

Sorry for the long message, I wanted to make sure I was clear about my intentions and justifications with these edits, and why I think they're important to mention within the page. I suggest a middle ground where the anthropology subsection is removed for the reasons listed above, and the Native American Ontology section is condensed with regard to Wikipedia's rules on proportionality. Barkiechaser (talk) 17:55, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm a little confused about what you mean with 60 years ago and the 90s. The works I was referring to were published in 2006 and 2005, as cited in the article. Apologies if that was not clear. The corresponding ISBNs are 0-02-865787-X and 0-19-926479-1 in case that helps. Which "Oxford Encyclopedia" are you referring to? Given that we now have 2 high-quality overview sources that speak against a substantial inclusion of Native American ontologies, are there any high-quality overview sources that speak in its favor? There are many indigenous ontologies besides Native American ontologies and even more non-indigenous ontologies. This means we have to be picky and follow reliable sources rather than original research in deciding what to include. On a short look, the sources [199] (Heywood 2012) and [200] (Ludwig & Weiskopf 2019) seem to support the claims they are used for. I'll look into them in more detail when I get the time. I don't understand why you regard it as "demeaning" for Native American thought to be discussed in the section "Anthropology". Phlsph7 (talk) 07:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Changes to the article

I was thinking about implementing changes to this article with the hope of moving it in the direction of GA status. The article has 6 unreferenced paragraphs and the following maintenance tags: 1x More citations needed, 1x Cleanup, 1x page needed, 6x citation needed. I think it needs more information on various topics that are either not discussed or only in passing. The overview section should have a subsection on the concept of being itself, including the contrast with non-being. The different branches of ontology should also be explained somewhere, like applied ontology, formal ontology, social ontology, and metaontology. The discussion of different ontological theories in the section "Types of ontologies" should probably be expanded to include ontological deflationism, monism vs dualism, materialism vs idealism, platonism vs nominalism, en- vs perdurantism, and modal realism.

There have been various ontological turns in different fields that should be mentioned somewhere, like science and technology studies, geography, and sociology. The methods of ontologists should also be discussed somewhere, not just philosophical methods but also ontological engineering in computer/information science. Other topics to be considered include the connections between ontology and logic, theology, and the natural sciences.

The article is already long as it is so these new topics can't be explained in much detail and some of the current contents would need to be shortened by summarizing. This pertains specifically to the section "Other ontological topics", which contains an assorted collection of subsections, many of which focus on minor topics. The history section is quite long; it could be split into its own article "History of ontology" while retaining a shorter summary here.

Various smaller adjustments are needed but they can be addressed later since the ones mentioned so far will already involve a lot of work to implement. I was hoping to get some feedback on these ideas and possibly other suggestions. I still have to do some research to work out the details. After that, I would start implementing them one at a time but it will probably take a while to address all the points. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:55, 31 May 2024 (UTC)